Rust

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(Media blasting rust)
 
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[[Image:Rust at battery tray old versus new.JPG|thumb|300px|A rusted battery tray alongside a new one.]]
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==What is rust and its causes?==
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Rust is a kind of corrosion/burning -- a decay or breakdown of a material in reaction to its environment. Specifically, rust is an electrochemical corrosion that occurs in the presence of iron, oxygen, and water. Oxygen and water are available in the open air, and iron is the principal ingredient in steel.
  
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For rust to occur it needs an anode (a piece of metal that gives up electrons), an electrolyte (a liquid that helps transport electrons), and a cathode (a piece of metal that accepts electrons). The more conductive the electrolyte, the quicker rust will occur. For this reason, humid air, salty air, or salty water will accelerate the formation of rust.
  
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Iron, with the chemical symbol of Fe, combines with oxygen, O, to form Fe<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub>, the chemical formula for common reddish-brown rust. In its mineral form, Fe<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub> is known as hematite.
  
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Rust is commonly referred to as ''iron oxide''.  An oxide is a type of chemical compound that contains oxygen and other elements (like nitrous oxide, N<sub>2</sub>O). Oxides are typically formed when elements come into contact with air, through a process known as oxidation. Oxides are common, comprising most of the earth's crust. Elements can have multiple oxides. For example, there are sixteen known iron oxides. Thus, it's more accurate to say that rust is '''an''' iron oxide, rather than saying that rust '''is''' iron oxide.
  
=What is rust?=
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Other metals besides iron oxidize, but their oxidation is not referred to as rust. For example, when aluminum oxidizes, it forms a protective, corrosion-resistant coating that is similar in appearance to un-oxidized aluminum. Zinc oxidizes similarly, which is why it is used for galvanizing. Only the oxidation of iron and steel is known as "rust". Why? Because iron oxide takes up more physical space than iron. It's bigger. So, when iron and air combine to make Fe<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub>, it "puffs out", exposing even more of the original steel to the elements.
  
==What causes rust?==
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There is another iron oxide also referred to as "rust". It's Fe<sub>3</sub>O<sub>4</sub>, commonly called "black oxide", or, in mineral form, magnetite. This is the stuff that's left over after using certain products to "convert" rust. Black oxide takes up the same amount of space as iron, so it doesn't bulge it out, like reddish-brown rust, Fe<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub>. Since black oxide itself doesn't offer much protection against corrosion, it's typically covered up (often with [[epoxy primer]]). Black oxide is an example of a conversion coating, a metal coating where part of the surface is converted into the coating itself, by a chemical or electrochemical process.
 
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Need more background here. Start with this article: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html .
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Plus, information on why older cars rust more quickly than newer cars:
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===Why do older cars rust more than newer cars?===
 
*Cars are more aggressively coated these days. Galvanizing (explain).
 
*Cars are more aggressively coated these days. Galvanizing (explain).
 
*Steel used in cars is of a higher quality these days.
 
*Steel used in cars is of a higher quality these days.
 
*More salt is used on roads these days.
 
*More salt is used on roads these days.
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*Progressive evolution of engineered 'self rinsing' technology, such as strategically designed/placed  drain holes to allow rain or wash water to purge body cavities of moisture absorbing rust producing sediments, moreover, robotic assembly methods to lessen the possibility of human error which may compromise the operation of such a design by 'less than precise' assembly. eg; the human worker adds an over-sized glob of body filler next to a fender well drain hole which inadvertently clogs it, causing the fender well to hold moisture laden debris instead.
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*Electrolysis due to some older cars (British) having 'positive ground' electrical systems -where the car's electrical system is basically all 'ground wires' instead. (eg: AMC Metropolitan assembled by Austin Motor Company in Longbridge, England -neither were they dipped in a rust preventing primer bath, then they were shipped in ocean salt air to be sold in USA)
  
=How to remove rust=
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=Rust assessment=
  
==Assessment==
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==The "best" way to handle rust==
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The "best" way to do something often implies the existence of the "best" conditions in regard to skill, time, and money.
  
Factors to assess:
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For example, the "best" way to handle anything more than surface rust on body panels is to liberally cut out the rusted area, and weld in a patch panel. Ideally, any metal shaping and metal finishing should be done without the use of any body filler products whatsoever. Many people don't have the necessary skill to do this.
*What's the part?
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*Can it be removed?
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*Can it be soaked?
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*How large is it?
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*Is it a body panel?
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*How much time is available?
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*How much skill does the person have?
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**Can weld?
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**Can shape metal?
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*Is a sandblaster available?
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*How much money can be spent on the project?
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*How bad is the rust?
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**After cleaning off rust of floor pans, wait until it's dark, and put a trouble light under your car. Pinholes in the sheet metal will show up very well in such a situation.
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**Jab rusty areas with a screwdriver, scratch awl, or icepick, and see if they go through.
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==Mechanical removal of rust==
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The "best" way to handle surface rust on an entire body is to have it professionally dipped, often at a cost of over $1000. This amount of money may not be available for a specific project, or it may be impractical to invest it.
  
For removing loose rust:
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If you take time to properly assess your own rust situation, you can choose a well thought-out solution that's "best" for you.
*Shop vac, putty knife, metal brush, wire wheel on grinder for loose stuff, or wire wheel that fits on a drill (not as good as grinder).
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*Putty knife
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*Metal brush
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*Wire wheel on grinder, or wire wheel on drill (not as effective).
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For scrubbing off rust:
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==Areas to assess==
*Scotch-brite pads and Comet/Ajax
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*Steel toothbrush
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Removal tips:
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===The rusted part or piece===
*Start with as low as 36 grit, and finish with as high as 220.
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*Can the part be removed? How large is it? Is it small enough to be soaked?
*These discs are considered superior to wire wheels: [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Online-Catalog/?PC_7_0_4UVL_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_4UVL_output=html&PC_7_0_4UVL_gvel=H55CPWS904gl&PC_7_0_4UVL_vroot=81LC4NNTD4ge&PC_7_0_4UVL_node=RCM96XTX07be&PC_7_0_4UVL_theme=en_us_manufacturingindustry_portal&PC_7_0_4UVL_command=CustomizePageHandler 3M clean & strip disc], or [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_0_4S4T_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_4S4T_output=html&PC_7_0_4S4T_gvel=RJ5GMFSMV0gl&PC_7_0_4S4T_vroot=GS4JK4Y166ge&PC_7_0_4S4T_node=GSGKXWRKYVbe&PC_7_0_4S4T_theme=en_US_marineproducts_portal&PC_7_0_4S4T_command=AbcPageHandler 3M bristle disc], or [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_0_4S4T_command=AbcPageHandler&PC_7_0_4S4T_theme=en_US_marineproducts_portal&PC_7_0_4S4T_output=html&PC_7_0_4S4T_vroot=GS4JK4Y166ge&PC_7_0_4S4T_gvel=RJ5GMFSMV0gl&PC_7_0_4S4T_node=GSVDY2CZYDbe&PC_7_0_4S4T_root=GST1T4S9TCgv Surface Conditioning Disc]
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*What part is it? Is it a body panel?
*When using wire wheel on drill, when the wire bristles start to bend one way, reverse the drill and work in the other direction for a while.
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===Media blasting rust===
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===The rust itself===
*Sand is not recommended for media blasting panels. It acts like little hammers, warping panels with by compressive forces (analagous to hail). Technically, it can be done, but extreme caution must be used.
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How bad is it? Exactly how to assess:
*Use softer media (list examples): 55 grit silica-based media, *[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_sand Sugar sand] is finer and less-damaging than regular sand.
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*Can sandblasting "increase" rust? Or, if the rust is removed and the metal is sealed, shouldn't it be eliminated? Some thoughts on this are:
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**Although sandblasting may appear to have removed all the rust to the naked eye, it hasn't really done so.
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**It's caused by water in the air compressor line, as sand will harbor some moisture. Also, compressed air contains moisture. And, sand has salt in it. A moisture trap in the line should solve the problem with the water in the air line.
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*Many panels have seams, hems, and bends that are inaccessible by blasting, and can hold moisture and rust. A spot blaster is recommended.
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*One option is to use chemical paint stripper, then use a sandblaster to lightly "dust" the remaining rust.
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*Media blasting can remove good metal from body panels too. Also, used media can have metal particles left in the media.
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*Soda blasting can remove light rust, and won't warp panels. However, when soda blasting body panels, the resultant film can negatively affect finish adhesion. Epoxy primer can peel off. Soda blast medium must be "neutralized". 24 or 36 grit grinder, followed by warm water with soap. Do this with a scuff pad, and rinse thoroughly. Some finish companies specifically advise against the use of their products on soda-blasted finishes, which makes its use contentious.
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*Jab rusty areas with a screwdriver, scratch awl, or icepick, and see if they go through.
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*After cleaning rust off of floor pans, wait until it's dark, and put a trouble light under your car. Pinholes in the sheet metal will show up very well in such a situation.
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*Rust coming through seams? (research this)
  
Need more info on the numerous types of media, which ones are recommended for what, cost, availability, etc.
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===Climate and operating environment===
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Do you live in a climate where water or salt will be present in the air? Is it a wintery climate where snow and/or salt will be present on the roads? Near the ocean?
  
==Chemical removal of rust==
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What environment will the part be operating in? Interior of car? Undercarriage? Submerged in oil?
chemical removal -- spray/paint on, plus soaking
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list applicable chems here
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Phosphoric acid, muriatic acid, toilet bowl cleaner, naval jelly -- let it sit: 20 minutes, hours, overnight.
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Coca-cola for rust removal?
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After acid, flush with water and baking soda.
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Lots of "rust neutralizers/metal etchers/floor etchers/metal conditioners" contain phosphoric acid. Turns the rust into a hard black substance.
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===Skills===
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Most of the skills required for removing rust are commonplace. However, certain jobs may require welding, or metal shaping.
  
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===Tools===
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Besides basic hand tools, do you have an air compressor? Access to a DA sander? Angle grinder with wire wheel? Media blaster? Spot blaster? Blast cabinet? Spray gun? In some cases electric powered tools can be used instead of pneumatic tools.
  
===Getting your entire body acid dipped===
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===Cost===
About $1000 - $1500? From Redi-Strip (technically not an acid? research this), a national chain.
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How much money do you have to put into the rust removal? What's the value of the project? Are you doing it "for money or for love"? If you plan on selling the project, can you expect a reasonable return on your investment?
  
What does redi-strip use to strip vehicles? Can a hobbyist acquire and use the same stuff?
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===Time===
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How much time can you put into the project? Both work time, and wait time. Do you have the time necessary to eliminate surface rust from a body by hand? Do you have time to drop a part into a bucket, and wait a few weeks while it soaks?
  
==Rust encapsulation==
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===Overall vehicle plan===
Hotrodders typically divide into 3 camps over the use of these products:
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What's your overall plan for the vehicle with the rusted part or piece? What kind of abuse is it going to take, and how important are looks? Will it be a daily driver? Are you going to show it?
#won't use them at all
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#will use them, but not on body panels
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#will use them on anything
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Explain the perspectives on the use of rust encapsulators.
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=Rust removal, treatment, and prevention=
  
*Brands: POR-15, Zero Rust, Eastwood Rust Encapsulator. These are NOT rust "converters", they don't alter rust, etc. There is a common misconseption that the ones listed are converters, but that is in fact false. They are a coating intended to seal out air and moisture. They are rust encapsulators.
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==Chemicals and finish products==
*Another argument against rust "treatments" is that many of them require the surface to be lightly rusted first. "Inducing" rust seems wrong to people.
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*POR-15 shouldn't be used on parts that will see direct sunlight -- it's color will change (although it won't lose its anti-rust capabilities).
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*POR-15 can't be applied over primer. Has to be done per instructions.
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*POR-15 is largely considered a "duct tape fix" or a "git-er-done" solution. It may be OK for the home hobbyist, but it's not considered the "right way" or the "professional way" to handle rust.
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*POR-15 is a three-step process: degreaser, then metal prep, then POR-15 paint.  (verify this).
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*If POR-15 and similar products have a "lifetime warranty", explain how guarantees like that don't involve labor costs, losses, or other related costs.
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===Understanding "magic formula" marketing===
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The market for rust removal, conversion, and encapsulation products is rife with far-fetched claims of "secret formula" rust solutions.
  
Hard to remove from skin. To remove from skin: Soak in vegetable oil for 30 minutes, or use a solvent (is there a specific POR-15 solvent?).
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Realistically, it's not very difficult for one company to chemically analyze another company's "secret formula", and produce an identical (or extremely similar) product. Many of the various rust removal and encapsulation products are, more or less, the same. A lot of it boils down to marketing, and the situation is only exacerbated by the fact that it's difficult to make a thorough assessment of a rust treatment product.  Properly assessing a rust treatment solution would likely involve waiting several years, and then removing any outer layers of finish so that any existing underlying rust could be examined.
  
POR-15, Zero-Rust, Eastwood Rust Encapsulator
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The uneducated consumer will likely recoil at the abundance of "magic" formulas for treating rust, and revert to selecting a safe, well-known, name-brand product line. This is a reasonable solution for many, but the name-brand rust treatment products tend to be rather expensive, especially in consideration of the fact that they are often comprised of inexpensive, common chemicals.
These might be the top 3?
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Len Stuart of Autobodystore.com recommends Picklex-20 followed by Zero Rust: http://www.autobodystore.com/new_page_1.htm
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Someone who has achieved good results with a certain combination of rust treatment products will often stay loyal to their method, without exploring other potential options that may indeed provide better results at a lower cost.
  
from Eastwood: [http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=852&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=688 Rust encapsulator v. POR-15]
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===Miscellaneous (need to be sorted)===
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*[http://www.tat-co.com/product.asp?ID=154 Body-Tec amber rustproofing]. 24 oz spray can. manufac: " Light viscosity allows material to flow into hard to reach areas easily. Ideal for core supports, sheet metal, frames etc"
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*[http://www.d-rust-it.com D-Rust-It] -- available in concentrate.
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*Amsoil HD
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*Slicksand
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*Featherfill
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*[http://www.krylon.com/main/product_template.cfm?levelid=5&sub_levelid=13&productid=1789&content=product_details Krylon rust tough primers]
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*[http://www.rustbeeter.com RustBeeter] (made from beets, maybe it's like molasses?)
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*Duro Extend
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*Devoe Bar-Rust
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*[http://www.noxudolusa.com/rust_protection/Rust_Protection.html Noxudol]
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*Loctite Extend Rust Treatment
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*Rustoleum (generally considered a poor choice for automotive applications. Good for cheap shop shelving, etc.)
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*[http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/specialized_maintenance_repair/body_interior_trim/auto_Permatex_Rust_Treatment.htm Permatex Rust Treatment]
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*[http://ridrust.com/ RidRust]
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*[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_0_53BC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_53BC_output=html&PC_7_0_53BC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_53BC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_53BC_node=GSQJ0YVJLSbe&PC_7_0_53BC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_53BC_command=CustomizePageHandler Rust Fighter]
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*DuPont 5717S Metal Conditioner
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*[http://www.rustx.com/ Rust-X]
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*[http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_mg.htm Jasco]
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*Prep-sol
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*[http://www.napasco.com/enrustreat.htm Mar-Hyde Rust Converter]
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*Rust N-M-E
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*[http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=2182 Knorrostol]
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*[http://www.hammerite-automotive.com/ Hammerite]
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*[http://www.eurekafluidfilm.com/ Fluid Film]
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*[http://www.waxoyl.com/en/produkte/120-4.htm Waxoyl]
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*[http://rustonic.com Rustonic]
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*[http://duplicolor.com/products/rustfix.html Duplicolor Rust Fix]
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*[http://www.therustdoctor.com/ Rust Doctor]
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*[http://bluelightning.zoovy.com/product/RR32 Blue Lightning]
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*[http://www.picklex20.com Picklex-20]
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*[http://rust007.com/knockout.htm Rust Knockout]
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*[http://www.napasco.com/enrustreat.htm Enrust]
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*[http://rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm Rust Destroyer]
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*Rust-Check
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*[http://www.evaporust.com/ Evapo-Rust Rust Remover]
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*[http://www.safestrustremover.com/ Safest Rust Remover]
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*[http://www.corroless.com/ Corroless]
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*[http://www.kleanstrip.com/special.htm Klean Strip Rust Converter]
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*[http://www.zerorust.com/ Zero Rust] -- [http://www.zerorust.com/tech.htm tech page], [http://www.zerorust.com/faq.htm faq]. Rust cleaning product is "prep-step", and clearcoat is called "crystal coat".
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*Rust Reformer
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*[http://www.rustbullet.com Rust Bullet]
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*[http://www.ospho.com/ Ospho]
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*Oxisolve
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*Rust-n-me
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*DuPont Metal Conditioner
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*PPG Metal Prep
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*DuPont Vari-Prime
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*All-Metal
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*[http://tntrustremover.com/ TNT Rust Remover]
  
Topcoat these products? Some may have a UV-resistant clearcoat to go with them -- research it.
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===Rust removers and "converters"===
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After using an acid to remove rust, flush the surface with water and baking soda '''(confirm or expand on this)'''.
  
Some professionals have expressed the concern that it's best to use rust encapsulator products "alone", and not within a professional coating product line. Good thread on this is here: http://hotrodders.com/forum/zero-rust-primer-98104.html .
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When converting/neutralizing rust:
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# Get everything off first that you can by sanding and wire brushing (wire brushing will get into the pits better).
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# A rust converter/neutralizer containing tannic acid, phosphoric acid or another type of acid should be used
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# Be careful of getting this stuff on your concrete floor as it will bubble and decompose it.
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# Follow the instructions on the bottle when you are done there should be a fine coating on the metal which will help prevent further rust from developing.
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# This stuff is hard on paintbrushes (eats away the bristles) and you must be very careful of your eyes. Also it will ruin paint, so, again, use caution.
  
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Lots of "rust neutralizers/metal etchers/floor etchers/metal conditioners" contain primarily phosphoric acid, which reacts with rust (iron oxide) to create iron phosphate, a hard black substance over which primer can be applied.
  
POR-15 is expensive. Are there other products that are just as good, but not so pricey? One problem with using "rust coating products" is that, for hobbyists, it's often best to stick with a single line of paint/finish products, from bare metal to clearcoat. Using most rust products means that you're outside of the product line for the rest of the finish. So, it may be physically incompatible (resulting in a poor paint job), or it may void the product warranty.
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Don't use battery acid (sulfuric acid) or muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) for rust removal. Strong acids are dangerous, and there are many more effective chemicals.
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*[http://www.ospho.com/ Ospho] Manufacturer description: When applied to rusted surfaces, it resists/retards rust in chemical change on drying to a tough, hard surface ready for priming.
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*[http://rustbeeter.com/ Rustbeeter] Merchant description: A byproduct of the sugar refining process. Probably similar to molasses. Parts must be submerged. Parts soak in a bucket for usually under a week, but as long as several weeks. Food product. Dry powder that gets mixed with water. Non-acidic or caustic. After use, parts are cleaned with dish soap and water, dried, and coated.
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*[http://www.tinmantech.com/html/must_for_rust_remover_inhibi.php Must for Rust] Merchant description: removes rust and corrosion, non-caustic to skin, needs no neutralizing, primer goes right over it. $28/gallon.
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*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=15974&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=373&iSubCat=374&iProductID=15974 Eastwood Rust Converter] Merchant description: 2-part mix, adheres to bare or rusty steel, and can be top coated with most coatings. 1 gallon each of the 2-part mix is $125.
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*[http://www.rust-cure.com/ Rust Cure] Merchant description: phosphoric acid-based. leaves a thin film that bonds well with most primers and paints. for pricing, need to see this page: http://rustcure.bizland.com/xwheretobuy.html .
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*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1124&itemType=PRODUCT Oxisolv Rust Remover] Merchant description: dissolves rust and leaves behind a zinc phosphate coating. Spray/brush/dip. Non-toxic, non-flammable, and re-usable. Must be cleaned off before priming.
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*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=11122&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Rust Dissolver] Merchant description: acid free rust remover, leaves surface ready to paint, plate, or powder coat. Suitable for engine parts, and harmless to copper, brass, aluminum, solder, lead, plastic, rubber, seals, wood or vinyl. Surface must remain wet for product to work. $40/gallon.
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*[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=164 Rust-Mort] Merchant's description: "Converts rust to a black or grayish, hard, insoluble, protective coating".
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*[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=206 SEM Rust-Seal] Manufacturer description: "Transforms rust leaving a tough, permanent, black protective coating. RUST-SEAL can be left exposed or may be top coated with enamels, lacquers or urethanes."
  
Need to go through these three companies rust product lines, and analyze all the available products.
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''(Make sure that none of the above count as "encapsulators". Also, what about the converters that leave a "protective film" on the metal. They say that they don't need neutralization, and they don't need to be washed off. Is this as good as cleaning to bare metal, and then hitting with epoxy primer?)''
  
*"silver" POR-15? Has a filler in it for minor imperfections?
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*Vinegar
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*Muriatic acid (not for use on body panels, as it causes [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement hydrogen embrittlement])
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*Toilet cleaner (?)
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*Cola (yes, contains phosphoric acid)
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*Phosphoric acid: leaves behind a coating of iron phosphate
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*Naval jelly (gelled phosphoric acid)
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*Mag wheel cleaner (?)
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*Molasses (a 1:10 solution of molasses to water can be used for soaking rusty parts, although it loses its strength after several months)
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*Powdered household cleaning products such as Comet or Ajax
  
When selecting a rust encapsulator, need to consider:
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===Rust encapsulators===
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''Main article: [[Rust encapsulators]]''
  
Product compatibility?
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Rust encapsulators work by sealing off existing rust, denying it the oxygen it needs to grow.
What can it be thinned with? How much?
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How long to dry/cure?
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UV protection?
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Colors?
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The use of rust encapsulators in hotrodding is controversial. Hotrodders typically divide into 3 distinct camps over the use of rust encapsulation products on vehicles:
  
*Some people mentioned that professional body shops don't use POR-15 or similar rust "encapsulators" because:
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#Won't use rust encapsulation products at all.
**They would have to re-do too much of their work.
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#Will use rust encapsulation products, but not on body panels.
**Rust prevention products are primarily advertised in hobbyist mags, not in periodicals read by professionals in the paint and body industry.
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#Will use rust encapsulation products on a variety of parts, including body panels.
**The lack of rust preventive products in non-hobbyist industries does appear suspect. For example, why don't ships at sea use POR-15?
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**The major paint manufacturers like Sherwin Williams, PPG, and DuPont don't produce a POR-15 like product. This is thought to be because they couldn't possibly warranty such a product.
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**The fact that POR-15 is not used by manufacturers is also important.
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===Rust preventive oils and waxes===
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*[http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1134 Cosmoline] . "Cosmoline" is a trade name for a generic rust preventative which conforms to US military specification MIL-C-11796C. It's a soft, brushable grease that's commonly used for preserving and storing firearms. "Rated to protect polished steel panels from rust for one year in open shed storage, and 30 days, minimum, in a humidity cabinet." $30/gallon
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*[http://boeshield.com/index.htm Boeshield T-9] "Designed to penetrate metal pores and dissolve minor corrosion, then leave a resilient waxy coating that lasts for many months." $100/gallon
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*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1117&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Heavy-Duty Anti-Rust]. Merchant's description: spray-on brown wax film which forms an air and water-tight barrier. won't crack, flake, or peel. used for inside door panels, or to protect bare metal parts during storage. $15/quart
 +
*[http://www.oxisolv.com/html/long_term.html Oxisolv rust inhibitor long term] -- Merchant description: displaces water on metal parts to prevent rust. environmentally safe, bio-degradable, protects steel. Apply by spraying thoroughly, or dipping.
 +
*[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=161 SEM internal panel coating] Manufacturer description: "provides corrosion protection to inner body panels and other metal parts"
 +
*[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_0_53BC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_53BC_output=html&PC_7_0_53BC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_53BC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_53BC_node=GS3H3CPLMLbe&PC_7_0_53BC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_53BC_command=CustomizePageHandler 3M Rust Fighter application wand]
 +
*[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_0_53BC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_53BC_output=html&PC_7_0_53BC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_53BC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_53BC_node=GSQJ0YVJLSbe&PC_7_0_53BC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_53BC_command=CustomizePageHandler 3M Rust Fighter]
 +
*[http://enjenjoesproducts.com/cg020001.html Brownpolymer rust inhibitor long term] -- Merchant description: displaces water on metal parts to prevent rust. environmentally Safe,It's a Cleaner,It's a Polish,It's a Lube, It's a Grease,It's a Protective Coating,Multi Use Polymer Substance
 +
*You can make your own basic rust protection coating from 1 part anhydrous lanolin (available from a pharmacy), and 5 parts paint thinner.
 +
*For machine tools, this is recommended: http://www.clclubricants.com/waylubes.htm .
 +
*Use something that releases rust-inhibiting vapor. Rust-blox vapor tabs, vpi paper, permatex in-charge corrosion inhibitor.
  
 +
===Epoxy primer===
 +
''Main article: [[Epoxy primer]].''
  
==Removing rust from body panels==
+
Epoxy primer/sealer is a non-porous finish that is typically recommended as the first basecoat over bare steel. Various epoxy primers can also be applied over [[Fiberglassing|fiberglass]], plastic, or the black iron phosphate coating that remains after "converting" rust.
  
===What's the "best" way to handle body rust?===
+
Epoxy primer is a two-part mix, with a hardener that has to be added before spraying. Body fillers and high-build primers can be used on top of epoxy primer.
The "best" way to complete a task often implies the presence of the "best" conditions.
+
  
Not just the "best" tools, "best" skills, and "best" amount of time. Also, the "best" payback on your investment of resources.
+
===Seam sealers===
 +
Seam sealers are used to seal roof channels, drip rails, trunk seams, door seams, and other body seams. They can be either one or two-part, and are typically applied over primer, sometimes with the use of a specially-designed caulking gun or spray gun.
  
So, the overall "best" way to handle rust may not be the "best" way for you or your particular situation.
+
*Lord Corporation makes several seam sealers: [http://www.lord.com/Home/ProductsServices/Adhesives/FusorAutomotiveAftermarketProducts/Products/SealersFoams/tabid/3402/Default.aspx Lord Corporation sealers and foams].
 +
*3M manufactures several different types of seam sealers: [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/New-Products/?PC_7_0_5FJC_command=CustomizePageHandler&PC_7_0_5FJC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_5FJC_output=html&PC_7_0_5FJC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_5FJC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_5FJC_node=GSWMS8NB1Nbe&PC_7_0_5FJC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv 3M seam sealers].
 +
*SEM Products makes a [http://sem.ws/Catalog.asp?prod=96 seam sealer], a [http://sem.ws/Catalog.asp?prod=271 beige seam sealer], a [http://sem.ws/Catalog.asp?prod=269 high build self-leveling seam sealer], and a [http://sem.ws/Catalog.asp?prod=98 self-leveling seam sealer].
 +
*Transtar Autobody Technologies makes a variety of seam sealers: [http://www.tat-co.com/productCategory.asp?ID=6#sub9 Transtar seam sealers].
 +
*International Epoxies and Sealers: [http://www.internationalepoxies.com/sealers.htm International Epoxies and Sealers body sealers].
 +
*Valvoline makes their [http://www.pliogripbyvalvoline.com/sealers_foam.html Pliogrip line of seam sealers].
 +
*Evercoat has the [http://www.evercoat.com/productCategory.aspx?cat=41 Maxim line of seam sealers].
 +
*McKanica makes a seam sealer in an aerosol can: [http://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=mckanica+seam+sealer&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 McKanica seam sealer].
  
Here are some of the more significant factors that will affect your choice of how to handle rust on body panels:
+
====See also====
 +
[http://autobodystore.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7467 "Basics of Basics": Seam Sealers (by Brian Martin)]
  
*How bad is the rust?
+
===Metal washes, wax and grease removers===
*What tools do you have? Do you have access to a sandblaster and welder?
+
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=258&itemType=PRODUCT&path=1%2C2%2C458%2C467%2C473&KickerID=39&KICKER Eastwood Metal Wash]. Merchant's description: dry compound that is mixed with water. removes grease and oils from bare metal, and leaves behind corrosion inhibitors that prevent flash rusting and promote paint adhesion. $11 for enough dry mix to make 7 quarts.
*How much money can you spend?
+
*[http://www.aerospace.henkel.com/index.cfm?ID=178 Metalprep 79] Manufacturer's description: phosphoric acid-based cleaner. leaves surface chemically clean and corrosion free. thoroughly rinse with water when done. brush/spray/dip
*How valuable is the vehicle? How rare? Resell value? Worth investing time into?
+
*Is DuPont's "Quick-Prep" equivalent to Metalprep?
*What type of climate do you live in? Dry or humid? Summery or wintery? Salt in the air (near the ocean) or on the roads (snowy winter)?
+
*What's your plan for the car? Daily driver? Show vehicle? Fixing it up to sell?
+
  
That being said, the general consensus on the overall "best" way to handle body panel rust is this:
+
Read this thread thoroughly: [http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/what-else-wax-grease-remover-besides-mineral-spirits-51150.html What to use to remove wax, etc.]
  
*'''Remove minor surface rust with phosphoric-acid based products. When down to bare metal, sand, clean and dry the panel, and spray it with a high-quality 2-part epoxy primer/sealer.'''
+
The following are not to be used as metal cleaners: lacquer thinner, acetone, reducers. Use the product within the recommendations of your product system. Cleaners typically vary as to strength, and time they take to evaporate.
  
*'''If it's anything more than minor surface rust on a body panel, cut it out and replace it. In most cases, this will involve carefully butt-welding in a patch panel.'''
+
Use clean, purpose-designed paint rags for cleaning with cleaners.
  
*'''If you're dealing with a complete vehicle body with rust, have it commercially dipped.'''
+
===Weld-through primer===
 +
Weld-through primer zinc-rich coating that conducts current from a welder, and doesn't burn off when welding. It can provide protection on lap welds and inner weld seams.Weld-through primer is often applied to the mating areas when welding body panels.
  
===What to apply to sandblasted steel prior to priming, to kill unseen rust===
+
*3M
Phosphoric acid, ZeroRust,.
+
*U-Pol
  
Does epoxy primer adhere well to bare steel? Yes. Can body filler and high-build primers be used on top of epoxy primer? Yes.
+
===Panel adhesives===
 +
Used to adhere body panels, as an alternative to welding. Need more information on these.
  
#Take scuff pad, wet it with phosphoric acid or product containing mainly phosphoric acid.
+
==Tools==
#Scrub metal to a clean, bright finish. Wipe dry with paper towels, and let flash dry completely.
+
*Shop vac
#Scuff dry panel with dry scuff pad, wipe with wax and grease remover until clean and dry; when wiped with a clean towel, it comes back up clean.
+
*Putty knife
 +
*Metal brush
 +
*Sand paper. 36 grit to 220 grit.
 +
*Wire wheel on drill. When the wire bristles start to bend one way, reverse the drill and work in the other direction for a while.
 +
*Wire wheel on grinder, or, these discs are considered to be superior to wire wheels: [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Online-Catalog/?PC_7_0_4UVL_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_4UVL_output=html&PC_7_0_4UVL_gvel=H55CPWS904gl&PC_7_0_4UVL_vroot=81LC4NNTD4ge&PC_7_0_4UVL_node=RCM96XTX07be&PC_7_0_4UVL_theme=en_us_manufacturingindustry_portal&PC_7_0_4UVL_command=CustomizePageHandler 3M clean & strip disc], or [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_0_4S4T_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_4S4T_output=html&PC_7_0_4S4T_gvel=RJ5GMFSMV0gl&PC_7_0_4S4T_vroot=GS4JK4Y166ge&PC_7_0_4S4T_node=GSGKXWRKYVbe&PC_7_0_4S4T_theme=en_US_marineproducts_portal&PC_7_0_4S4T_command=AbcPageHandler 3M bristle disc], or [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_0_4S4T_command=AbcPageHandler&PC_7_0_4S4T_theme=en_US_marineproducts_portal&PC_7_0_4S4T_output=html&PC_7_0_4S4T_vroot=GS4JK4Y166ge&PC_7_0_4S4T_gvel=RJ5GMFSMV0gl&PC_7_0_4S4T_node=GSVDY2CZYDbe&PC_7_0_4S4T_root=GST1T4S9TCgv Surface Conditioning Disc].
 +
*Scotch-brite pads
 +
*Steel toothbrush
 +
*Media blaster
 +
*Blasting cabinet
 +
*Spot blaster
 +
*Welder
 +
*Steel wool
  
===How to treat rusty drip-rails?===
+
===Tips===
#sand blast
+
*When using a wire wheel, don't sit in one spot for too long -- the localized heat from friction can warp sheet metal.
#wash with wax and grease remover
+
#spray with 2 coats of epoxy
+
#spray with seam sealer
+
  
 +
==Methods==
 +
===Body panel rust removal===
 +
Ideally, only surface rust on body panels is "treated". Anything more than that would mean that the affected area would be cut out, and replaced with fresh metal.
  
===Step-by-step epoxy primer application to panels===
+
====Removing surface rust from body panels====
#strip, and sand with 80-grit sandpaper
+
First, remove all the heavy surface rust with a DA sander and 80-180 grit paper.
#clean with wax and grease remover until a clean towel can be rubbed on it without discoloring
+
To remove surface rust, use naval jelly (jelled phosphoric acid) and steel wool.
#spray 2 coats of epoxy, according to manufacturer's directions
+
#Work in small areas, not larger than a square foot. Wear rubber gloves, and scrub with naval jelly and steel wool.
#body filler can be applied next, although sometimes the epoxy will need to be scuffed or sanded (read instructions)
+
#Apply jelly with 000 steel wool, rub it in, and allow it to set for a couple of minutes. Don't let it dry. Keep it wet, using a squirt bottle. For inclines, you can also soak some fabric in water, and lay it on the naval jelly.
#when the filler work is done, scuff the whole panel with a red scotch-brite pad.
+
#Rub again with steel wool. Repeat a few times.
#then, apply two more coats of epoxy, followed by high-build primer.
+
#When finished, wipe off the excess naval jelly with a paper towel, squirt on warm soapy water, and dry thoroughly.
 +
#Wipe down with lacquer thinner.
 +
#Sand with 180 grit.
 +
#Use wax and grease remover, and then spray with epoxy primer.
 +
#From there, you can apply body filler (the epoxy may need to be scuffed, read instructions).
 +
#When the filler work is done, scuff with a red scotch-brite pad.
 +
#Then, apply two more coats of epoxy, followed by high-build primer.
  
 +
====Cutting out rust====
 +
First, make a tape template. Tape off the area that's going to be cut off, leaving a healthy border of good metal. Transfer the tape template to the patch panel, in one piece. Cut out the templated piece from the patch panel. Then, screw the cut-out piece to the car as a temporary guide. From there, rough-shape the patched piece. Cut some slits if necessary, and hammer. Then, make the cut on the body panel, with the patch still screwed to the car. Then, unscrew the panel from the car, and hammer-form it on a bench, anvil, etc. Finally, butt-weld it back onto the car. Weld, with lots of spread-out spot welds (wait for them to cool), so the panel doesn't warp. Then, grind down the welds. Treat with rust protection, then body filler, primer, etc.
  
===Treating light body rust (from storing panels) prior to epoxy===
 
Sand with 80 grit, wash with wax and grease remover. Use waterborne wax and grease remover, instead of solvent-borne (research exactly what that means), let set 15-30 minutes. Dry with a blower and a tack rag. Spray epoxy.
 
  
 +
A quarter panel rust fix demonstrating the above is illustrated here: http://www.a2zautoforums.com/showthread.php?t=700
  
  
===Quick fix for exposed areas (dents, etc.)===
+
====Treating light body rust (from storing panels) prior to epoxy====
If a dent causes an area of bare metal to be exposed. To "hold" it so it won't rust until a paint job is ready to be done: gently bump out the dent, sand, rattle can primer, rattle can sealer.
+
Sand with 80 grit, wash with wax and grease remover. Use waterborne wax and grease remover, instead of solvent-borne (research exactly what that means), let set 15-30 minutes. Dry with a blower and a tack rag. Spray epoxy.
  
===Rusted window channels===
+
====Getting the entire vehicle body dipped====
Bad news. Difficult to fabricate.
+
''(Need more info on Redi-Strip. What chemical do they use? What's the cost? Can a hobbyist acquire and use the same chemical that Redi-Strip uses? When the body is returned to you, is it truly completely clean, or does it have to be cleaned to get all of the chemical removed from nooks and crannies, etc.?)''
  
===Muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid)===
+
====Quick fix for exposed areas (dents, etc.)====
For cleaning aluminum, not steel. Don't use it on body metal! Causes hydrogen embrittlement.
+
If a dent causes an area of bare metal to be exposed. To "hold" it so it won't rust until a paint job is ready to be done: gently bump out the dent, sand, rattle can primer, rattle can sealer.
  
===The fiberglass resin patch trick===
+
====Do both sides of a panel have to be treated with rust converter/encapsulator?====
One technique that has been recommended is to grind/clean the rust, tape the underside of the panel to be patched, and then fill the holes with fiberglass resin, then paint and undercoat. This trick is not really a good idea -- when the body flexes, there will be cracks in the fiberglass pieces.
+
Explain this.
  
===Butt-weld or lap-weld===
+
====Removing pitted rust in body panels====
Need pros and cons here. Butt-weld is generally preferred.
+
See: [[pitted rust]].
  
Use 18-20 gauge sheet metal.
+
====Fixing rust holes in body panels====
 +
See: [[pitted rust]].
  
===Storing body panels===
+
====Storing body panels====
Use epoxy primer (AKA epoxy primer/sealer), it won't allow rust. Not the same as regular primer.
+
Use epoxy primer (aka "epoxy primer/sealer"), it won't allow rust. Not the same as regular primer.
 
Wet-sand down to 400 grit, wash/dry, grind down rust to bare metal, apply body filler where needed, blow off, clean with prep-sol or similar cleaner, tape it up, and prime with epoxy primer.
 
Wet-sand down to 400 grit, wash/dry, grind down rust to bare metal, apply body filler where needed, blow off, clean with prep-sol or similar cleaner, tape it up, and prime with epoxy primer.
  
===Panel adhesives===
+
====Removing rust in seams====
Need info on these.
+
A spot blaster is useful.
  
===Cavity waxes and seam sealers===
+
To do it right, you will generally need to pull the seam apart, remove the rust, and then hit it with a rust conversion product. However, sometimes you can open up the layers slightly with a hammer and putty knife used between the spotwelds. Bend the flange open, media blast into the seam, clean, prime with epoxy primer, brush in urethane seam sealer, and close the seam back up. If the seam is not accessible, flood it with a penetrating cavity wax, like 3M's Rustfighter.
3M rustfighter, Transtar's Amber Coating, Amsoil's HD. Transtar sells 360 degree spray head wand -- find this.
+
How to apply seam sealer/cavity wax? Plus, more general info on cavity wax.
+
  
===Rivets?===
+
====Accessing rust between interior panels====
Very low-end solution, like fiberglass patching metal.
+
 
+
===Plasma spray welding===
+
With plasma spray welding, metal wire is converted to sprayable form, and used to repair rust holes, fill panel joints, and blend patch panels. One example is the machine sold by [http://www.rustbustersllc.com Rustbusters].
+
 
+
===Body filler to bare metal?===
+
It's a common procedure to apply body filler to bare metal, but it's not the "best" way to do it. User "badbob" on the HRBB says: "fillers get applied over bare metal every day and it's an acceptable recomended procedure, but applying a quality epoxy primer first adds corrosion resistance, durability, adhesion, and filler flexability. It just takes more time. Time that most people aren't willing to spend."
+
 
+
===Accessing rust between interior panels===
+
 
Pressure washer with pencil tip can knock everything loose out.
 
Pressure washer with pencil tip can knock everything loose out.
 
"For the doors, and removeable panels that I can't get inside completely, I will simply pour the epoxy inside and slosh it around, and let it soak into the seams." -- by adtkart here: http://hotrodders.com/forum/need-more-info-rust-please-help-113166.html .
 
 
  
 
Drill small holes, get a spray wand with a 360-degree head. Then, when done, weld the holes shut.
 
Drill small holes, get a spray wand with a 360-degree head. Then, when done, weld the holes shut.
Line 246: Line 313:
 
Don't spray expanding foam. It absorbs water, and will cause more rust. It can also expand and cause the panels to push out.
 
Don't spray expanding foam. It absorbs water, and will cause more rust. It can also expand and cause the panels to push out.
  
 +
====How to treat rusty drip-rails?====
 +
#blast
 +
#wash with wax and grease remover
 +
#spray with 2 coats of epoxy
 +
#spray with seam sealer
  
===Removing pitted rust===
+
====Plasma spray welding====
After removing all surface rust, treat with metal prep, wash, dry, sand, prime, fill the pits with polyester putty (or Evercoat's Metal 2 Metal), then smooth and prime again.
+
With plasma spray welding, metal wire is converted to sprayable form, and used to repair rust holes, fill panel joints, and blend patch panels. One example is the machine sold by [http://www.rustbustersllc.com Rustbusters].
  
A spot blaster is useful for this: silica as the medium. Grinding wheel, die grinder.
+
====Rusted window channels====
 +
''(Difficult to fabricate, need more info on this.)''
  
Or, repeatedly prime with a high build primer and block sand. You may have to prime/block several times to get the pitted area up to the same level as the surface around it.
+
===Vinyl tops===
 +
Rust is common in vinyl tops. The vinyl gets porous after a few years, and lets in moisture.
  
Sprayable body filler, called "SlickSand"? From Evercoat? Like a "very high build primer"? Hard, but sands easy.
+
''(How to prevent?)''
  
Let naval jelly sit on the pitted area overnight, if possible. Cover naval jelly with plastic wrap to keep it from drying out overnight.
+
Vaseline ,push it in between the moldings around the top and wipe off excess.Spray a heavy oil around Landau /opera windows let sit and wipe off excess any little tears should also have a drop of silicone pushed in them to avoid moisture.
  
Heat the pitted area until it glows, and then cool it with oil on a rag. Clean with wax/grease remover, scuff, prime, paint. Just for small areas, because it causes wrinkles and shrink marks.
+
===Leaf spring rust===
 +
Remove rust, then, ideally, paint them separately. Re-assemble with teflon strips.
  
Product recommendation: Featherfill?
+
===Preventing rust at chassis to ground connection===
 +
Silicone dielectric grease, electrical bonding paste; spray well with clear lacquer after bonding the connection.
  
===Removing surface rust===
+
===Cleaning light surface rust off crankshaft===
*How about using baking soda and water?
+
  
*To remove surface rust, use naval jelly (jelled phosphoric acid) and steel wool.
+
Have a machine shop polish the journals.
#Work in small areas, not larger than a square foot.
+
#Apply jelly with 000 steel wool, rub it in, and allow it to set for a couple of minutes. Don't let it dry.
+
#Rub again with steel wool. Repeat a few times, and then clean the area. Dry it immediately.
+
  
*To convert/neutralize rust
+
May require a regrind to the next correct bearing size prior to polishing depending on tolerances.
# Get everything off first that you can by sanding and wire brushing (wire brushing will get into the pits better)
+
# A rust converter/neutralizer containing phospheric acid or another type of acid shold be used
+
# Be careful of getting this stuff on your concrete floor as it will bubble and decompose it
+
# Follow the instructions on the bottle when you are done there should be a fine coating on the metal which will help prevent further rust from developing
+
# This stuff is hard on paintbrushes (eats away the brisles) and you must be very careful of your eyes. Also it will ruin paint so again use caution.
+
  
----
+
Using a decent regular flow of CRC 5.56 or a PTFE type spray and an M3 grey scotchy (then try green scotchbrite if need) rubbed in direction of crank travel, localised to effected area. Mask off area with masking tape to prevent scratching unaffected areas if necessary.
Need 80-180 grit sandpaper, DA sander (or sand by hand), steel wool, naval jelly, squirt bottle w/warm soapy water, and paper towels.
+
  
#Get all heavy rust off with DA sander and 80-180 grit paper.
+
Rust is tough, and large areas vigourously rubbed (mechanically or otherwise) may cause damage to the finish of the journal. Initial contact needs to be with clean CRC rinsed rag, keep the journal area clean and use a light touch, buffing in one direction until the initial rust colour no longer shows.
#Working in 1-2 square feet at a time, wearing rubber gloves, scrub with naval jelly and steel wool. Don't let the naval jelly dry, keep it wet, squirt with bottle.
+
#Rinse and re-apply naval jelly if necessary, to get to clean shiny metal.
+
If sand paper is to be employed, try starting with 2000 grit (no less than 1200 grit), change paper regularly, and keep the strokes light. You are only removing the outer scale, you are not resurfacing the journal just rubbing out rust.
#When finished with an area, wipe off excess naval jelly with paper towel, squirt on warm soapy water, and dry thoroughly. Then wipe down with lacquer thinner. Can then sand with 180 grit. After that, you can just use wax and grease remover, and then paint with epoxy primer.
+
 +
Phosphoric acid localised can help in any pits.
  
===After removing rust===
+
Acids on hardened steels can cause embrittlement so dont leave it on long, only enough to blacken the rust. Afterwards switching to a microfibre rag with a product like Autosol, Blue Magic or even Brasso, you can polish out any minor scratches on the journal. Steel wool usually isn't recommended as it can scratch the journal finish, and it creates fine particles that must be throuoghly cleaned from the crank. If rust is more than 0.005" deep get it resurfaced.
Need to wash and prep surface, with a solvent like lacquer thinner or DuPont Prep-Sol.
+
  
===Fixing rust holes===
+
Also-
Grind down all the paint and rust from around the hole. Clamp a piece of copper to the other side (roof flashing, penny, etc.). Then, fill in the hole with a MIG welder. When done, unclamp the copper -- it won't stick to the panel. Also, it absorbs the heat, so the panel won't warp as much.
+
  
Rust pinholes are hard to repair with a welder because the "holes" are actually "craters". The hole is the bottom of a craterlike thinned out area of metal.
+
* Very fine steel wool or scotchbrite pad, and light oil. Rub around the journals in the direction of rotation, not across.
 +
* Cut 600 grit wet or dry sandpaper into strips the width of the crank journals. Wrap it around the journal, and secure it with tape. Then, make a strap from leather, about one-half the width of the sandpaper strips. Use the strap on the paper in a shoeshine motion. Finish off with some light oil on the sandpaper. Do a few strokes first, then clean the paper, because the rust will clog the sandpaper.
  
Will brass work too?
+
''(LP3 as rust inhibitor on crankshafts?)''
  
What about drilling and patching pinholes?
+
===Electrolysis===
 +
Advantages: self-limiting (can't remove too much), safe (low electrical current), won't harm good metal, not an acid (less dangerous, and no risk of hydrogen embrittlement)
  
===Removing rust in seams===
+
Need: a plastic tub, iron electrode, water and washing soda (sodium carbonate), and a batter charger. About 1 tablespoon of soda per gallon of water. Can't find washing soda, then lye will work. Wear eye protection and protect skin too. Connect the electrode to the positive battery terminal. Connect the rusted object to the negative terminal. Submerge the object. Make sure the contact is good (may need to clean off some of the rust from the rusty part). Typically takes a few hours, but can take up to overnight. Rinse or scrub with brush to remove final rust debris. May need to re-treat. Oil, wax, or prime soon after. Surface of rusted metals is black after treatment.
Spot blaster is useful.
+
  
To do it right, you will generally need to pull the seam apart, remove the rust, and then hit it with a rust conversion product. However, sometimes you can open up the layers slightly with a hammer and putty knife used between the spotwelds. Bend the flange open, media blast into the seam, clean, prime with epoxy primer, brush in urethane seam sealer, and close the seam back up. If the seam is not accessible, flood it with a penetrating cavity wax, like 3M's Rustfighter.
+
Be creative to clean oddly-shaped objects:
  
 +
*plastic PVC pipes
 +
*large 2x4 wood boxes lined with plastic sheeting
 +
*suspend an electrode in a cavity
 +
*use a sponge soaked in the electrolyte solution, with a backing electrode, for objects that can't be submerged.
  
Products:
+
The powder used is a mild alkali.
#[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=97 SEM High Build Self Leveling Seam Sealer]
+
  
 +
====Resources====
 +
*[[Electrolytic rust removal]] Crankshaft Coalition wiki article
 +
*http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm
 +
*http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-removal-lower-arms-other-suspension-parts-108384.html
 +
*http://www.davidbradley.net/ERR.html
 +
*http://antique-engines.com/trailer-electrolysis.htm
 +
*http://www3.telus.net/public/aschoepp/electrolyticrust.html
 +
*http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/other-articles/467718-rust-removal-electrolysis.html
 +
*http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/electrolytic-rust-removal-revisited-163423.html
  
===Weld-through primer===
+
===How to remove rust from chrome===
A zinc-rich coating that conducts current from a welder. It can provide protection on lap welds and inner weld seams. As a general rule, weld-through primer is applied to the mating areas when welding body panels. List a few commercially available weld-through primers here. 3M, U-Pol, etc. It doesn't burn off when welding.
+
*Mag wheel polish, or [http://www.turtlewax.com/main.taf?p=2,1,4,12 Turtle Wax Chrome Polish].
 +
*Fine steel wool, scotch-brite pads, crumpled-up pieces of aluminum foil.
  
===What exactly is e-coating?===
+
===Preventing engine rust===
Research this.
+
Engine storage spray, or wipe down with [http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/ Marvel Mystery Oil].
  
=Miscellaneous=
+
Cylinder walls with flash rust: Marvel Mystery Oil, steel wool, etc. Pitted rusting will necessitate a rebuild.
  
===Cleaning light surface rust off crankshaft===
+
===How to de-rust gas tanks===
Have a machine shop do it, or:
+
Put a handful of nuts and bolts in, chain, chainsaw blade, etc., and shake it around a bit to knock out the loose stuff. Not too aggressive -- you'll dent the tank. Then, clean with phosphoric acid. Pour it in, let it sit for up to an hour, then flush with water and baking soda to neutralize. Or, Eastwood has a kit for this: an acid to clean it, and then something to coat it with. However, some people say that the coating can clog up the fuel filter, or trash your OEM sending unit. The best way to do it is to take it out and get it re-tinned.
  
#Very fine steel wool or scotchbrite pad, and light oil. Rub around the journals in the direction of rotation, not across.
+
===How to clean engine water jackets or radiator of rust===
 +
Flush with CLR, Kool Klean (can't find). Manufacturers of CLR say that it shouldn't be used in a radiator: http://www.jelmar.com/CLRbasic.asp .
  
OR
+
When building an engine, to prevent rust: when done washing it and blowing it dry, oil it down, and store it in a plastic bag -- sealed ''(confirm this)''.
  
#Cut 600 grip wet or dry sandpaper into strips the width of the crank journals. Wrap it around the journal, and secure it with tape. Then, make a strap from leather, about one-half the width of the sandpaper strips. Use the strap on the paper in a shoeshine motion. Finish off with some light oil on the sandpaper. Do a few strokes first, then clean the paper, because the rust will clog the sandpaper.
+
==="Oiling" your car===
 +
In climates that are more prone to rust, cars are sometimes "oiled". Rocker panels, doors, and other body passages are drilled and sprayed inside with oil, used oil, or gelled oil substances. Entire frame and suspension are also oiled. Can be done yearly in very rust-prone climates.
  
LP3 as rust inhibitor on crankshafts?
+
Historically, this procedure has been used before driving the car down a dirt road. The dirt sticks to the oil on the underside of the vehicle, providing an effective sealing layer. Consider how, when removing a dirty, oily gasket, the metal beneath it is clean. Same concept.
  
===How to remove rust protection===
+
Now, this might be done with an application-specific undercarriage wax or oil.
How to remove old rust protection finishes? Or undercoating?
+
  
Wire wheel? Brake cleaner? Kerosene? Heat gun? EZ-Off oven cleaner? Mineral spirits? Freeze with dry ice, then chisel out? Wallpaper steamer?
+
===Preventing MIG wire rust===
 
+
Store in a bag with some dessicant packets. Here's a list of dessicants: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_desiccants List of dessicants]. Also, can use small old refrigerator with 100 watt bulb inside, for storing rods and wires. Stays about 100 degrees. Small fan inside too.
===Rustoleum===
+
Is generally considered to be a poor choice for most automotive applications. Good for cheap shop shelving, etc.
+
  
 
===Underside rust removal===
 
===Underside rust removal===
Line 339: Line 417:
 
Another option is to keep the car low to the ground, and, with plastic sheeting and duct tape, seal the area between car and floor. Leave the rear area of the plastic "tent" open for access. At the front of the "tent", affix a shop vac hose (exhaust). Blast.
 
Another option is to keep the car low to the ground, and, with plastic sheeting and duct tape, seal the area between car and floor. Leave the rear area of the plastic "tent" open for access. At the front of the "tent", affix a shop vac hose (exhaust). Blast.
  
 +
===Rustproofing brake rotors===
 +
Zinc dip, also Eastwood has some solutions? Research this.
  
===Electronic Rust Inhibition===
+
===Axle tube rust===
*[http://www.counteractrust.com/ CounterAct Electronic Rust Protection]?
+
When rebuilding a rear end, the rust can be cleaned out with naval jelly/shoving rags down it with a broomstick.
*[http://www.ruststopnorthamerica.com/electronic-rustproofing-rust-proofing.htm Rust Stop North America]
+
  
This is known as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection cathodic protection]? Research this. And: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrificial_anode sacrificial anode] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode galvanic anode].
+
===Cleaning hand tools===
 +
Tumble in a cement mixer with oil and sand. Or, soak in a bucket with parts cleaner or paint thinner.
  
===Removing rust from chrome===
+
===Rust prevention on tools===
Use a mag wheel polish, fine steel wool, crumpled-up pieces of aluminum foil.
+
Keep tools in a wooden toolbox. Also, use a shop dehumidifier. Avoid dust on your tools, as it can attract moisture, and thus, rust.
  
===Electrolysis===
+
===Electronic rust inhibition===
Removing rust with electrolysis -- research this: http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm , http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-removal-lower-arms-other-suspension-parts-108384.html , http://www.davidbradley.net/ERR.html , http://antique-engines.com/trailer-electrolysis.htm .
+
*[http://www.counteractrust.com/ CounterAct Electronic Rust Protection]?
 
+
*[http://www.ruststopnorthamerica.com/electronic-rustproofing-rust-proofing.htm Rust Stop North America]
 
+
===Cleaning rusty tools===
+
Soak in a bucket with: parts cleaner or paint thinner.
+
 
+
Tumble them in a cement mixer with sand and oil.
+
 
+
===How to clean engine water jackets or radiator of rust===
+
Flush with CLR, Kool Klean (can't find). Manufacturers of CLR say that it shouldn't be used in a radiator: http://www.jelmar.com/CLRbasic.asp .
+
 
+
When building an engine, to prevent rust: when done washing it and blowing it dry, oil it down, and store it in a plastic bag -- sealed (confirm this).
+
 
+
 
+
===Gas tanks===
+
Put a handful of nuts and bolts in, chain, chainsaw blade, etc., and shake it around a bit to knock out the loose stuff. Not too aggressive -- you'll dent the tank. Then, clean with phosphoric acid. Pour it in, let it sit for up to an hour, then flush with water and baking soda to neutralize. Or, Eastwood has a kit for this: an acid to clean it, and then something to coat it with. However, some people say that the coating can clog up the fuel filter, or trash your OEM sending unit. The best way to do it is to take it out and get it re-tinned.
+
 
+
 
+
===Evapo-Rust===
+
Interesting article here: http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/evaporust/index.html . Forum guy reviews evapo-rust. Disadvantages of acid: can't breathe it, must wash all parts thoroughly after using it, or the acid starts working again when it gets wet.
+
 
+
===Epoxy primer===
+
No, you can't get epoxy primer in a rattle can. It's a two-part mix, with a hardener that has to be added before you spray it. Rattle can primer is typically porous, which means it wil attract water, and consequently rust, whereas 2-part epoxy primer is not.
+
 
+
===Understanding "magic formula" marketing===
+
The market for rust removal, conversion, and encapsulation products is rife with far-fetched claims of "secret formula" rust solutions.
+
 
+
Realistically, it's not very difficult for one company to chemically analyze another company's "secret formula", and produce an identical (or extremely similar) product. Many of the various rust removal and encapsulation products are, more or less, the same. A lot of it boils down to marketing, and the situation is only exacerbated by the fact that it's difficult to make a thorough assessment of a rust treatment product.  Properly assessing a rust treatment solution would likely involve waiting several years, and then removing any outer layers of finish so that any existing underlying rust could be examined.
+
 
+
The uneducated consumer will likely recoil at the abundance of "magic" formulas for treating rust, and revert to selecting select a safe, well-known, name-brand product line. This is a reasonable solution for many, but the name-brand rust treatment products tend to be rather expensive, especially in consideration of the fact that they are often comprised of inexpensive, common chemicals.
+
 
+
Someone who has achieved good results with a certain combination of rust treatment products will often stay loyal to their method, without exploring other potential options that may indeed provide better results at a lower cost.
+
 
+
===Everything you need to know about rust===
+
For a full-rounded knowledge, someone will need to know:
+
 
+
*The different "families" of rust treatment products: rust conversion, rust encapsulation, and rust prevention.
+
*The different rust removal methods: mechanical removal, soaking, commercial dipping, "converting" by spraying, painting, or scrubbing on, cutting out, encapsulating, electrolysis.
+
*How to know when to use which product, and which method, and when.
+
 
+
===Various commercial rust treatment products===
+
 
+
====Rust converters/dissolvers====
+
*[http://www.tinmantech.com/html/must_for_rust_remover_inhibi.php Must for Rust] Merchant description: removes rust and corrosion, non-caustic to skin, needs no neutralizing, primer goes right over it. $28/gallon.
+
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=15974&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=373&iSubCat=374&iProductID=15974 Eastwood Rust Converter] Merchant description: 2-part mix, adheres to bare or rusty steel, and can be topcoated with most coatings. 1 gallon each of the 2-part mix is $125.
+
*[http://www.rust-cure.com/ Rust Cure] Merchant description: phosphoric acid-based. leaves a thin film that bonds well with most primers and paints. for pricing, need to see this page: http://rustcure.bizland.com/xwheretobuy.html .
+
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1124&itemType=PRODUCT Oxisolv Rust Remover] Merchant description: dissolves rust and leaves behind a zinc phosphate coating. Spray/brush/dip. Non-toxic, non-flammable, and re-usable. Must be cleaned off before priming.
+
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=11122&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Rust Dissolver] Merchant description: acid free rust remover, leaves surface ready to paint, plate, or powder coat. Suitable for engine parts, and harmless to copper, brass, aluminum, solder, lead, plastic, rubber, seals, wood or vinyl. Surface must remain wet for product to work. $40/gallon.
+
*[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=164 Rust-Mort] Merchant's description: "Converts rust to a black or grayish, hard, insoluble, protective coating".
+
*[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=206 SEM Rust-Seal] Manufac descrip: "Transforms rust leaving a tough, permanent, black protective coating. RUST-SEAL can be left exposed or may be topcoated with enamels, lacquers or urethanes."
+
(What about the converters that leave a "protective film" on the metal. They say that they don't need neutralization, and they don't need to be washed off. Is this as good as cleaning to bare metal, and then hitting with epoxy primer?)
+
 
+
====Rust encapsulators====
+
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1137&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=373&iSubCat=374&iProductID=1137 Eastwood Rust Encapsulator] Manufacturer description: encapsulates rust and primes in one step. can be used under or over body fillers. compatible with most topcoats. $100/gallon.
+
 
+
====Rust preventatives====
+
*[http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1134 Cosmoline] "Rated to protect polished steel panels from rust for one year in open shed storage, and 30 days, minimum, in a humidity cabinet." $30/gallon
+
*[http://boeshield.com/index.htm Boeshield T-9] "Designed to penetrate metal pores and dissolve minor corrosion, then leave a resilient waxy coating that lasts for many months." $100/gallon
+
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1117&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Heavy-Duty Anti-Rust]. Merchant's description: spray-on brown wax film which forms an air and water-tight barrier. won't crack, flake, or peel. used for inside door panels, or to protect bare metal parts during storage. $15/quart
+
*[http://www.oxisolv.com/html/long_term.html Oxisolv rust inhibitor long term] -- Merchant description: displaces water on metal parts to prevent rust. environmentally safe, bio-degradable, protects steel. Apply by spraying thoroughly, or dipping.
+
*[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=161 SEM internal panel coating] Manufacturer description: "provides corrosion protection to inner body panels and other metal parts"
+
 
+
====Cavity waxes====
+
 
+
====Seam sealers====
+
*[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=269 SEM high build self-leveling seam sealer]. Manufacturer description: "Seals interior and exterior joints and voids. Paintable in 30 minutes."
+
*[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=98 SEM self-leveling seam sealer]. Manufacturer description: "Designed for use on drip rails, trunk seams, and roof channels".
+
 
+
====Metal washes====
+
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=258&itemType=PRODUCT&path=1%2C2%2C458%2C467%2C473&KickerID=39&KICKER Eastwood Metal Wash]. Merchant's description: dry compound that is mixed with water. removes grease and oils from bare metal, and leaves behind corrosion inhibitors that prevent flash rusting and promote paint adhesion. $11 for enough dry mix to make 7 quarts.
+
*[http://www.aerospace.henkel.com/index.cfm?ID=178 Metalprep 79] manufac: phosphoric acid-based cleaner. leaves surface chemically clean and corrosion free. thoroughly rinse with water when done. brush/spray/dip
+
 
+
 
+
 
+
====Miscellaneous====
+
*[http://www.tat-co.com/product.asp?ID=154 Body-Tec amber rustproofing]. 24 oz spray can. manufac: " Light viscosity allows material to flow into hard to reach areas easily. Ideal for core supports, sheet metal, frames etc"
+
 
+
 
+
 
+
*[http://www.krylon.com/main/product_template.cfm?levelid=5&sub_levelid=13&productid=1789&content=product_details Krylon rust tough primers]
+
*[http://www.rustbeeter.com RustBeeter] (made from beets, maybe it's like molasses?)
+
*Duro Extend
+
*Devoe Bar-Rust
+
*Loctite Extend Rust Treatment
+
*[http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/specialized_maintenance_repair/body_interior_trim/auto_Permatex_Rust_Treatment.htm Permatex Rust Treatment]
+
*[http://ridrust.com/ RidRust]
+
*[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_0_53BC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_53BC_output=html&PC_7_0_53BC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_53BC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_53BC_node=GSQJ0YVJLSbe&PC_7_0_53BC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_53BC_command=CustomizePageHandler Rust Fighter]
+
*DuPont 5717S Metal Conditioner
+
*[http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_mg.htm Jasco]
+
*[http://www.napasco.com/enrustreat.htm Mar-Hyde Rust Converter]
+
*Rust N-M-E
+
*[http://www.hammerite-automotive.com/ Hammerite]
+
*[http://www.eurekafluidfilm.com/ Fluid Film]
+
*Waxoyl
+
*[http://rustonic.com Rustonic]
+
*[http://duplicolor.com/products/rustfix.html Duplicolor Rust Fix]
+
*[http://www.therustdoctor.com/ Rust Doctor]
+
*[http://bluelightning.zoovy.com/product/RR32 Blue Lightning]
+
*Picklex-20
+
*[http://rust007.com/knockout.htm Rust Knockout]
+
*[http://www.napasco.com/enrustreat.htm Enrust]
+
*[http://rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm Rust Destroyer]
+
 
+
*Rust-Check
+
*[http://www.evaporust.com/ Evapo-Rust Rust Remover]
+
*[http://www.corroless.com/ Corroless]
+
*[http://www.kleanstrip.com/special.htm Klean Strip Rust Converter]
+
*[http://www.zerorust.com/ Zero Rust] -- [http://www.zerorust.com/tech.htm tech page], [http://www.zerorust.com/faq.htm faq]. Rust cleaning product is "prep-step", and clearcoat is called "crystal coat"
+
*Rust Reformer
+
*[http://www.rustbullet.com Rust Bullet]
+
*[http://www.ospho.com/ Ospho]
+
*Oxisolve
+
*Rust-n-me
+
*DuPont Metal Conditioner
+
*PPG Metal Prep
+
*DuPont Vari-Prime
+
*Recommended body filler is All-Metal. Thought to be more moisture-resistant.
+
(are some rust "converters" really just muriatic acid?)
+
 
+
===Rustproofing brake rotors===
+
Zinc dip, also Eastwood has some solutions?
+
 
+
 
+
===All-Metal filler?===
+
Aluminum filler compound. Good for filling holes?
+
 
+
===Preventing engine rust===
+
Engine storage spray, or wipe down with [http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/ Marvel Mystery Oil].
+
  
Cylinder walls with flash rust: marvel mystery oil, steel wool, etc. Pitted rusting will necessitate a rebuild.
+
''(This is known as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection cathodic protection]. Research this. And: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrificial_anode sacrificial anode] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode galvanic anode].)''
  
 
===Frame rust===
 
===Frame rust===
Sandblasting or dipping is best. Then, wire wheel is next-best. Can be professionally sandblasted and powder-coated for ~$250 at a good price.
+
Sandblasting or dipping is best. Then, stripping wheel or wire wheel is next-best. Can be professionally sandblasted and powder-coated for ~$250 at a good price.
  
 
Patching is usually not worthwhile, unless it's a special or valuable frame. Too easy to replace, and too much potential structural damage. Has to be done perfectly. Can be replaced with steel of the same gauge as the original frame, and welded in to place.
 
Patching is usually not worthwhile, unless it's a special or valuable frame. Too easy to replace, and too much potential structural damage. Has to be done perfectly. Can be replaced with steel of the same gauge as the original frame, and welded in to place.
Line 497: Line 451:
 
#etching primer
 
#etching primer
 
#epoxy primer
 
#epoxy primer
 
 
 
  
 
====Cleaning the inside of a boxed, open-ended frame====
 
====Cleaning the inside of a boxed, open-ended frame====
 
Blow out all the dirt, etc. Then, attach a strong towel to some strong cord. Soak the towel with rust treatment chemical, and pull it through the frame.
 
Blow out all the dirt, etc. Then, attach a strong towel to some strong cord. Soak the towel with rust treatment chemical, and pull it through the frame.
  
 +
===Media blasting rust===
 +
See: [[Media blasting]].
  
===Treating rusted body panels===
+
*Sand is not recommended for media blasting panels. It acts like little hammers, warping panels with compressive forces (analagous to hail). It can be done, but extreme caution must be used. Sand also dulls as it is used, which reduces its cutting efficiency with each reuse.
First, rust must be removed: chemicals, blasting, sanding, or cutting it out and replacing with fresh metal. If you can't completely remove it, you'll need to use a rust converter or a rust encapsulator.
+
*Use softer media (list examples):
 +
**55 grit silica-based media
 +
**[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_sand Sugar sand] is finer and less-damaging than regular sand.
 +
*Can sandblasting "increase" rust? Or, if the rust is removed and the metal is sealed, shouldn't it be eliminated? Some thoughts on this are:
 +
**Although sandblasting may appear to have removed all the rust to the naked eye, it hasn't really done so.
 +
**It's caused by water in the air compressor line, as sand will harbor some moisture. Also, compressed air contains moisture. And, sand has salt in it. A moisture trap in the line should solve the problem with the water in the air line.
 +
**Sand by hand after sandblasting, to eliminate this issue.
 +
*Many panels have seams, hems, and bends that are inaccessible by blasting, and can hold moisture and rust. A spot blaster is recommended.
 +
*One option is to use chemical paint stripper, then use a sandblaster to lightly "dust" the remaining rust.
 +
*Media blasting can remove good metal from body panels too. Also, used media can have metal particles left in the media.
 +
*Soda blasting can remove light rust, and won't warp panels. However, when soda blasting body panels, the resultant film can negatively affect finish adhesion. For more details, see: [[Soda blasting]].
  
With converters and encapsulator, be sure to treat rust from both sides of the panel.
+
=Miscellaneous=
  
===Axle tube rust===
+
==Flooded vehicles==
When rebuilding a rear end, the rust can be cleaned out with naval jelly/shoving rags down it with a broomstick.
+
Flooded vehicles can be very difficult to handle, as there can be rust in any and all places. They are best avoided, unless it's the car that you really want.
  
===Vinyl tops===
+
==What's galvanization?==
Rust is common in vinyl tops. The vinyl gets porous after a few years, and lets in moisture.
+
''(needs confirmation)''
  
How to prevent?
+
"Galvanizing" typically refers to hot-dip galvanizing, a process by which iron or steel is coated with a thin layer of zinc, by dipping it in a molten bath of zinc. Galvanized steel can be welded. It's been used for more than 150 years.
  
 +
Zinc oxidizes when exposed to air, forming zinc oxide, which then reacts with water molecules in the air to form zinc hydroxide, which then reacts with carbon dioxide in the air to form zinc carbonate. Zinc carbonate (the final "galvanizing" layer), is a thin but very tough protective layer. It also acts as a "sacrificial anode". It will corrode before the steel it is protecting.
  
===Metal etches leave coating?===
+
Many modern automotive body panels are galvanized.
Follow up on metal etches like DuPont's Metal Etch or POR's Metal Ready leaving a phosphoric acid coating on the metal that will prevent flash rusting while storing.
+
  
===Preventing MIG wire rust===
+
You can buy cold galvanizing spray. ''(list examples here)''
Store in a bag with some dessicant packets. Here's a list of dessicants: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_desiccants List of dessicants]. Also, can use small old refrigerator with 100 watt bulb inside, for storing rods and wires. Stays about 100 degrees. Small fan inside too.
+
  
===Preventing rust at chassis to ground connection===
+
==Hydrogen embrittlement==
Silicone dielectric grease, electrical bonding paste; spray well with clear lacquer after bonding the connection.
+
All acids contribute hydrogen to metal. This causes hydrogen embrittlement, which weakens the metal. Untrue: you can "bake" the hydrogen out at 400 degrees F, after exposing a metal to acid.
  
 +
==Fiberglass resin patches==
 +
One technique that has been recommended is to grind/clean the rust, tape the underside of the panel to be patched, and then fill the holes with fiberglass resin, then paint and undercoat. This trick is not really a good idea -- when the body flexes, there will be cracks in the fiberglass pieces. Metal also expands at different rates than [[Fiberglassing|fiberglass]], causing cracks to form, allowing more rust to form in these cracks.
  
===Galvanization===
+
Using POR-15 (a moisture-cured urethane) and fiberglass cloth will produce a low-cost repair that will bond and flex with the metal. In fact, POR-15 sells a $20 kit to do this very thing. While this method does fill the holes and provides a rust-resistant repair, it does not restore any mechanical strength to the metal like an actual metal patch panel would.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization]
+
  
need more info on galvanization. done before primer in commercial applications.
+
==Do metal etches leave coating?==
 +
Follow up on metal etches like DuPont's Metal Etch or POR's Metal Ready leaving a phosphoric acid coating on the metal that will prevent flash rusting while storing.
  
===Vinegar===
+
==How to remove rust protection==
White vinegar can be used to remove minor rust.
+
How to remove old rust protection finishes? Or undercoating?
  
===Leaf spring===
+
*Wire wheel
Remove rust, then, ideally, paint them separately. Re-assemble with teflon strips.
+
*Brake cleaner
 +
*Kerosene
 +
*Heat gun
 +
*EZ-Off oven cleaner
 +
*Mineral spirits
 +
*Freeze with dry ice, then chisel out
 +
*Wallpaper steamer
  
 +
==What about riveting in patch panels?==
 +
Very low-end solution, like [[fiberglass]] patching metal. Panel adhesives are a better choice when you can't weld.
  
===Flooded vehicles===
+
=Resource dump=
Flooded vehicles can be very difficult to handle, as there can be rust in any and all places. They are best avoided, unless it's the car that you really want.
+
 
+
==="Oiling" your car===
+
In climates that are more prone to rust, cars are sometimes "oiled". Rocker panels, doors, and other body passages are drilled and sprayed inside with oil, used oil, or gelled oil substances. Entire frame and suspension are also oiled. Can be done yearly in very rust-prone climates.
+
 
+
===Mag wheel cleaner as rust remover?===
+
 
+
 
+
===Cosmoline===
+
Cosmoline is a trade name for a generic rust preventative which conforms to US military specification MIL-C-11796C. It's a soft, brushable grease that's commonly used for preserving and storing firearms.
+
 
+
What about [http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1134 Cosmoline] for short-term rust prevention (up to one year) on parts? Also, drilling holes in inaccessible parts (frames), and filling with Cosmoline?
+
 
+
===Bulk notes===
+
*Phosphoric acid (naval jelly, etc.) reacts with rust (iron oxide), to form iron phosphate (the black stuff that naval jelly leaves behind). Neutralize with: baking soda.
+
*Don't ever use battery acid (sulfuric acid) to remove rust. Very dangerous to work with, and harms metal.
+
*To keep naval jelly wet, soak some fabric in water, and lay it on the naval jelly. Can work on an incline.
+
*Don't sit in one spot too long with a wire wheel -- it will warp the metal from the heat.
+
*The iron phosphate coating that's left behind by rust converter is a fine base for primer.
+
*One recommendation is: after sandblasting, remove some more of the surface metal by sanding with sandpaper. This is done to remove the salt, sand, moisture, etc. from the surface.
+
*Molasses is thought to work, but takes a while. 1 part molasses to 10 parts water.
+
*To remove rust: Comet/Ajax with Scotch-Brites, and then muriatic acid with scotch-brites, and then rinse and wash with Comet/Ajax again to neutralize the acid.
+
*What's "all-metal"? Same as all-metal prep?
+
 
+
Links to review: http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/novdec98/laboratory.htm , http://www2.sherwin-williams.com/im/cs/cs-spring2003/feature-01.asp .
+
 
+
==Resource dump==
+
 
'''Drop links in here if they're relevant to this article. They'll be reviewed, incorporated, and referenced.'''
 
'''Drop links in here if they're relevant to this article. They'll be reviewed, incorporated, and referenced.'''
 
+
*[http://www.carcraft.com/howto/24544/ CarCraft article on using POR-15 and fiberglass mat for hole repair]
 
+
*[http://lasertronics.com/ Lasertronics.com]
*[http://www.a2zautoforums.com/showthread.php?t=700 quarter panel rust fix]
+
*[http://www.theruststore.com/rust_info.aspx articles at theruststore.com]
*[http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm Rust removal FAQ]
+
*[http://rustbeeter.com/ Rustbeeter]
+
*[http://science.howstuffworks.com/question445.htm How does rust work?]
+
 
*http://www.corrosionsource.com/index.htm
 
*http://www.corrosionsource.com/index.htm
 
*[http://www.fertanamerica.com/ Fertan rust remover]
 
*[http://www.fertanamerica.com/ Fertan rust remover]
 +
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization Galvanization]
 
*[http://www.safestrustremover.com/ SafestRustRemover.com]
 
*[http://www.safestrustremover.com/ SafestRustRemover.com]
 
*[http://www.instructables.com/id/E17UQMY28PEQ6T2A5Z/?ALLSTEPS Electrolytic rust removal]
 
*[http://www.instructables.com/id/E17UQMY28PEQ6T2A5Z/?ALLSTEPS Electrolytic rust removal]
 
 
*[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/good-durable-paint-frame-98391-2.html rust protection paint]
 
*[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/good-durable-paint-frame-98391-2.html rust protection paint]
 
*http://counteractrust.com/
 
*http://counteractrust.com/
 
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling_%28metal%29
 
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling_%28metal%29
 
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickle_liquor
 
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickle_liquor
 +
*[http://www.finishing.com/116/94.shtml e-coating]
 
*http://www.novelindia.com/Stainless_Steel_Pickling_Passivation_Chemical.htm
 
*http://www.novelindia.com/Stainless_Steel_Pickling_Passivation_Chemical.htm
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muriatic_acid
 
 
*[http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html rust primer]
 
*[http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html rust primer]
 
*[http://www.theruststore.com/rust_info.aspx rust removal and prevention articles]
 
*[http://www.theruststore.com/rust_info.aspx rust removal and prevention articles]
Line 596: Line 538:
 
*http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_mg.htm
 
*http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_mg.htm
 
*[http://www.restorick.com/tech/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37 zero rust application tips]
 
*[http://www.restorick.com/tech/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37 zero rust application tips]
 +
*[http://www.clausenautobody.com/proddetail.php?prod=rust-defender Rust defender product]
 +
*[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/master-chemical-nomorerust-pitted-surfaces-154053.html Hotrodders Bulletin Board rust discussion]
  
===Related resources===
+
=Related resources=
 
*[http://www.sizes.com/tools/sandpaper.htm Sandpaper sizes]
 
*[http://www.sizes.com/tools/sandpaper.htm Sandpaper sizes]
 
*[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Abrasives/ 3M industrial abrasives]
 
*[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Abrasives/ 3M industrial abrasives]
 
*[http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/basic_profile.cfm?ident_number=9324 US military specification covering Cosmoline]
 
*[http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/basic_profile.cfm?ident_number=9324 US military specification covering Cosmoline]
 +
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust Rust]
 +
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion Corrosion]
  
==References==
+
=References=
 +
*[http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html MetalWeb Rust Primer]
 +
*[http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm Electrolytic Rust removal FAQ]
 +
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization
 +
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematite
 +
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite
 +
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_coating
 +
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_oxide
 +
*[http://science.howstuffworks.com/question445.htm How does rust work?] HowStuffWorks.com
 +
*[http://www.a2zautoforums.com/showthread.php?t=700 Quarter panel rust fix], ''A2Z Automotive Forums'', March 26, 2002.
 
*[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rust-what-acceptable-permanent-ways-get-rid-47303.html Acceptable ways to handle rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 7, 2004.
 
*[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rust-what-acceptable-permanent-ways-get-rid-47303.html Acceptable ways to handle rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 7, 2004.
 
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pits-39.html Rust pits], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 27, 2001.
 
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pits-39.html Rust pits], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 27, 2001.
Line 694: Line 649:
 
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/stopping-rust-inside-103320.html Stopping rust from the inside], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 26, 2006.
 
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/stopping-rust-inside-103320.html Stopping rust from the inside], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 26, 2006.
 
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-treatment-repair-109939.html Rust treatment and repair], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 25, 2007.
 
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-treatment-repair-109939.html Rust treatment and repair], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 25, 2007.
 +
 +
[[Category:Body and exterior]]
 +
[[Category:Good articles]]
 +
[[Category:Garage and shop]]
 +
[[Category:General hotrodding]]
 +
{{youcanedit}}

Latest revision as of 20:51, 4 February 2018

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